I guess the question is:
Do you really want minimum wage police, firefighters, and teachers?

That's where it will go if Issue 2 passes.

Vote NO on Issue 2.

I PAY TO MUCH TAX. I WILL BE VOTEING FOR ISSUE SB5 SO MY TAXS DONT KEEP GOING UP.

John Jay and Mark Holka prove that ignorance is bliss. If John Jay thinks that our police, firemen and maintenance workers are "useful idiots", then I think John Jay and Mark Holka are "useless idiots".
Maybe you can blame your teachers for your mangling of the English language Mark.
I'm voting NO on SB5

I don't view blue collar public employees as useful idiots...I'm merely stating that's how those in the education establishment sees them

John jay I'm sure the firefighters and police along with all other public employees are glad you think of them as usefel idiots. Also correct English usage would be "merely stating how those in the educational establishment see them, not sees.

I'm sure the tea party thinks of you useful too

Mayoral candidate rob berner is in favor of senate bill 5 too, make sure you vote both down in November.

Vote no on berner
Vote no on issue 2

proof the education system is broken david ....please re-read my post immediatly prior to your comment ...if you can ...duh

oh my an academic...got tenure???

I would like to know how all Avon lake candidates view senate bill 5 or issue 2. Support of such a dirty political bill will make me vote against anyone who supports it

No I'm a brand new teacher, but I feel the way you fiscal idiots are treating the teachers with experience is wrong, especially when I can see through your arguments to your clear motives. Do you patriots feel then same transparency you want in public collective bargaining agreements should apply to John kasichs newly formed jobs Ohio program? Or is that different?

Tell Jennifer fenderbosch and rob berner I said hello.

Dave I thought this was a kent news site...Avon begins with the letter "A' recent KSU grad eh?

Jay

You claim that someone else thinks of public employees as useful idiots, however you thought of that. Which means you think that. Unless you are a member of the teachers union, that took a vote on the consensus of the members thoughts, then you made it up and therefore you made that up and you think that.

Issue 2 [SB5] is a most important issue----you ability to get an education for your children and grandchildren hangs on your vote---please, instead of the personal attacks, and childish insults, take some time and educate yourself about the issue, then make an informed decision when you vote---I feel the info offered by the Teachers Unions and the State employee unions is strongly biasd, and grossly missleading , but don`t take my word for it. check out the facts---chances of getting factual, unbiased info from these groups is wishful thinking---Go to the Buckeye Institute, check out the info there, cross check their info too, we must get this right .

You can find the salary + benefits of almost any state employee at Buckeye--you will be amazed at the info contained there-----www.buckeyeinstitute.org/getthefacts--------info@buckeyeinstitute.org ------www.betterohio.org-----Information posted on these sites shows that by 2015, close to 90 cents of every tax dollar will be spent on benefits for State employees and teachers---there will be nothing left for students, classrooms, supplies, whatever---again, don`t take my word for it, but don`t take theirs either---check it out for yourself ---we must get this right!--thank you for your kind attention.

Of all the comments, only Mr Mooney offers a rational approach to becoming educated on the facts rather than emotional propaganda and rhetoric. If you have a position please offer some facts and support your argument. Take for example the claim by one side that SB5 is an attempt to destroy the middle-class and will result in minimum wages. Please explain how SB5 causes that to happen ? Where can we find those provisions in SB5 ? Make your case in an intelligent and civil manner.

Reading all these comments on SB5 kinda disturbs me. My guess everyone posting here considers themselves as middle class. Many of you have fallen under the politicians spell. This is exactly what they want. Neighbor fighting neighbor because one has a better pension or an extra week of vacation. This takes the attention of the politicians and the financial wall street wizards who put us in this mess. Did you all forget why the economy crashed? Not because of the teachers or public safety workers. It was greed from the upper class, which Gov. Kasich is part of. Remember he was a top manager at Lehman Brothers when they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar and went bankrupt. Stop drinking Kasichs koolaid and blaming your neighbor and the Unions for the nations problems. Weather you are in a union or not you need to support them or at least understand them. The Tea party keeps chanting they want their America back. Back to what? pre-1920 before unions were formed. when you worked a sixty hour work week with low wages no paid vacation. Thank the unions for the change they made in America because we all benefited from them weather you want to admit it or not. SB5 takes us back to the 1920's and Kasichs clowns can sit back and run the country into the ground. Join me in voting NO on issue 2.

Again, if you make an assertion such as claiming that SB5 will take us back to pre-union times please support your claim with some evidence. How does SB5 cause this. Opponents of SB5 seem to rely on emotional claims but offer no evidence or rational argument to explain their position based on what's in SB5. Whether you are opposed or in favor, the only outcome of mudslinging is that we all get dirty !

Mike, keep in mind that the salary is only the beginning---in many districts the teachers pay nothing toward their retirement and health care----issue 2 would require that they pay 15% of their health care and 10% toward their pension. about 90% of the private sector would only dream about such low costs. In the private sector, failure to make a profit results in layoffs, or closure, while with public employees simply roll out the banners and propaganda machine, talk poor, and demand the taxpayer fork over---of course its for the children, nothing selfish here. The same with policemen and firefighters, they are not being asked to take cuts in salary or benefits, only that fairness be introduced to the argument. Issue 2[SB5} is the fair answer.

The evidence is in the bill. This bill is more than making government workers pay more for pensions and health care like the commercials want you to believe. It takes away all bargaining rights, I mean ALL. they will have no say in how they do their job.The mayors or city mangers have complete control over every aspect of the city workers job. Which goes way to far. Mayors come and go every few years but government workers are there for 30+ years. It only takes one mayor to destroy an employees career. bargaining rights are more than asking for a pay raise. It provides a forum to get better equipment, smaller classrooms and saver working conditions. Now these things may not seem important to you but they are crucial to these workers to do their jobs with skill and safety. You probably don't go to work every day and risk your life for others these folks do. They deserve a little more respect than what they are getting. You really need to understand the process of collective bargaining to realize without it we go back to pre-union times. It wont happen over night but it will happen. If you still don't understand the process just ask I will be happy to explain it to you.

@Victor- It’s interesting that in the same sentence you state that unions are biased and then point to the Buckeye Institute as a credible source. If you research them you might find that they are considered by many to be a right leaning organization.

The salary information is said to be taken from state information, and most of the figures I have checked have been close enough to be considered accurate. However, their “articles” and projections are certainly not unbiased.

Victor, would you please site your source for “-in many districts the teachers pay nothing toward their retirement and health care” I understand this to be true of many administrators, but have found no teachers where this is true. (Administrators are not in unions and will not be affected by SB5.)

You state that firefighters and policemen are not being asked to take cuts in salary or benefits, but if they are paying more toward these won't it come directly from their pay?

Curious- why do you think our public employee legislators exempted themselves from SB5?

Under SB5 there is no limitation on what the governemnt body can charge employees for their health care coverage. 15% is minimum...there is no maximum ...I suppose 100% is the maximum under SB5! That is what some cities will be doing if SB5 stays. Also SB5 will allow endless years of 0% wage (raise), and safety forces are 100% prohibited from negotiating staffing and safety equipment due to the fact the city can ALWAYS take THE CITIES offer over ANY Union offer with no impartiality whatsoever.

Charlie, I found your commentary quite useful. Well said.

Amen Charlie. So sick of these whiners complaining about an isolated incident and you are right if she is a poor teacher they can fire her today without SB5. These tea party crazies think that government employees are untouchable. just the opposite is true teachers and public safety workers have suffered massive layoffs across the state just like the private sector.

Really Steve? Manhatten New York? How is this relevant to Ohio and SB5? Geez of course she makes $100,000 dollars. Its Manhatten. Thats like making 50,000 here in ohio. Thats the best you got?

SB5 is an EXTREME approach with NO COMPROMISE! That is the whole problem with SB5. Supporters of SB5 have already won. Even if the NO vote wins, Kasich and company will piece meal SB5 to get their way. Hopefully this time they will sit down with the unions and work through a compromise as it should have been done in the first place. Are there good points to SB5? Yes! Are there bad points? Definitely! SB5 is an absolute overreach of power by a few politicians. The bad points outweigh the good on so many levels. All I can say is Vote No on Issue 2 and rework this mess of legislation to a more reasonalbe level.

Micheal: while I do believe the Buckeye Institute deals only in facts, [we are speaking of 4 people, two of which I do know personally], I encouraged you to check everything-- "Left Leaning" --everyone is to the left or right of someone---Once you begin to listen, not just to the words, watch the actions, check the motives, you can discern the truth. First, no teacher starts with $17,000 in Ohio, secondly, I live in Milan, Edison School District [Formerly Berlin-Milan ]-- teachers start a over $30,000 + benefits- that includes zero payment on their health care and instead of the state recommened 10% of Retirement with 15% paid by the taxpayer their actual payment is less than 1%--with the taxpayer picking up over 24% of the required 25%- same is true of our administrators--actually some of them are receiving double payments on their pensions---again, don`t believe me---you can go to the Buckeye Institute--[sorry], and check it out---while there , you can check the salary and benefits of your local teachers and administrators, include an eyeopening search in the section dealing with College professors and administrators and for most government employees and politicians ---and while there --you can hunt for those teachers who are making $17,000--[good luck]---P. S. Check out some of the graphs dealing with salaries and growth of different sectors of Ohio `s econony---be sure to have a chair handy when you study the statistics.--Thank You for your Kind attention!

Current state employee collective bargaining agreements call for the same 15% and 10% contribution levels for health insurance premiums that Issue 2 does.... No Savings there..

Many Ohioans live under local governments that under Ohio’s existing collective bargaining law denies the right of government employees to engage in collective bargaining, such as township and village governments, etc., like the Village of Mt. Sterling, who is losing their entire police force due to Governor Kasich’s cuts in funding for local governments... No thing There.

the Columbus Dispatch found that in nearly 81% of the local government units they examined in central Ohio, these two provisions (healthcare & Pensions) of Issue 2 saved zero to less than 1% of the total budget of that governmental unit. Nearly half of the units studied would see no savings at all under the health care insurance provisions of SB 5. Even in the local governments where the Dispatch found that these provisions would result in savings, the savings were incredibly small (<1% of the budget.) .. Not Much but some

Schools, ah yes those rich teachers, many contracts prior to SB 5 have been re-negotiated by local boards, and I would argue that as contracts come up for re-negotiation .. you will be hard pressed to find any that don't include concessions.

Anyone who claims that state public employee unions oppose Issue 2 because they oppose limits or concessions on Pension and healthcare is flat out lying.

In 2009, when tax collections slipped the Strickland administration, including the Governor, gave up ten days of pay – a 4% cut – the GOP-controlled Senate opted to preserve their full pay. And in 2009 — and again in 2011 — Senate leadership punted legislation to cut the pay of future legislators by a modest 5%.

President Niehaus and his caucus are leading by example, cutting costs and saving taxpayer dollars as they have encouraged local leaders to do, right? taxpayer-funded pay increases. His Chief of Staff, Assistant Chief of Staff, Finance Director and Senate Clerk all received a $15,000 yearly pay increase. The Deputy Finance Directory received a whopping $23,005. increases were retroactive, on July 16, these same staffers each took home checks containing 26 weeks of back pay at the higher rate, as if their raises had been in place since January. Whatley received a check for $10,123.20. Perera got $11,930.40, Connolly $11,964.80. And Schuler took home $12,825.61 for a single 2-week pay period.
We give these guys a pass and direct all our anger at our Teachers, Police and Fire, I don't get it.

Folks: I don`t care wich way you lean---I consider myself a constitutional conservative---I am not a republican, although I have voted mostly republican for some time. I will contunue to do so as long as I deem the best candidate for any possition is such. I am a proud Tea Partier. I believe that my government
spends, at all levels, far too much money, especially that which it does not have. Now if that disqualifies me, you can stop reading now. ------First, Firefighters[26 years] and Policemen do not have the right to strike, never have , Issue 2[SB5] changes nothing there. Binding arbitration is addressed and hopefully improved. There are no salary or pension cuts in the bill, [it does propose reductions in the increases projected under the present trends], basically it deals with the exponential growth in the pensions and health care costs projected over the next few years. And it is designed to allow the Taxpayer to once again be involved in the spending of "HIS" money. I don`t think the issue is how much the government employees make, but whether the taxpayer can pay the price. Until now, he had no choice, Issue 2[SB5] will get him involved in the negotiations. I would question those who keep talking about the "middle Class", average household income is just north of $25,000 including benefits, to argue that teachers or state employees are part of that group, is disengenous. Thank You for Your Kind Attention.

Again, you kill your arguments with those charges of giving government excesses a pass and to add insult accuse reader who do not agree with your position of directing anger toward police,fire and teacher employees. What about the plight of taxpayers who are fighting to pay the bills including the rising cost ot government employees' services. Are you aware that while government spending over the last 40 years has incereased 300% the median American worker income has increased only 27%. And you suggest that the taxpayers have no reason to want to reign in government spending.

I don't know about other school districts, but when the President of the Board told me that the teachers union will NEVER, EVER, EVER, consider giving up their raises with contract negotations it showed me that they are selfish people. You ask for levies so the kids don't lose their afterhour programs, and yet the teachers claim "it's all about the kids" BULL. Sounds like everyone is scared to be working like the private sector. Just so you know... we manage fine.

Mr. Hellyar asked people to use facts to support their argument that SB5 is bad instead of emotion and rhetoric. How about the fact that the buckeye institute report "dipped in gold" inflated average ohio firefighters retirement income by almost 300%

Firefighters in Ohio on average retire with a pension of 37,900.00 * (source: Ohio police and Fire pension fund). So when people lie about you and try to get the public to pass a law to fix what they lied about - it's pretty rational to become emotional.

here's a link about the author of many of the buckeye institute's articles about public servants pensions and union contracts:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mary-mccleary/11/582/5a5

her name is Mary McCleary, and please notice she is a "Koch Fellow at Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation" Wow someone who works for one of the richest men in the world's foundation to promote liberty thinks public servants are over paid. Forget the fact that she lies about how much their paid.

that's an example of why SB5 makes me sick. Lies written by puppets of the Koch brothers.

Now please tell me whats wrong with a guy who works 25 years in the fire service and receives 37,900.00 for his pension and I'll show you a guy that will become emotional very quick.

If you notice - Ms. McCleary after writing the dipped in gold report, left the buckeye institute and now works for Josh Mandel. She started 2 months ago & makes over $50,000.00 a year. I worked as a firefighter for 7 years before making 50K.

these are the people you are putting your faith in by voting yes on issue 2. Please trust your local police and Fire personnel, not these politicians in disguise. Whatever City you live in - call your police or fire department and ask them what they think about this issue.

If Issue 2 would actually save police and Fire jobs, don't you think they would support it?

People,
please follow the Patch use guidelines.

I just won a bet with myself---less than 24 hours after I offered that I was a Tea Partier, I am being attacked and ridiculed--all of a sudden myself, the Buckeye institure, Mary McCleary?, John Kasich, and a host of others are liers, deceivers, etc.---All John Kasich has done is pay the $8 Billion bill left by the previous Govenors and balance the budget without raising taxes. I realize that new taxes, balanced budgets, and attempts to encourage jobs to return to Ohio are totally new ideas --- but they could work. The current batch legislators are the hardest working gruop to be elected for 100 years[my opinion], they are doing exactly as they promised, [strange behavior, novel idea]. SB5 [issue 2] was placed before the House, and debated, modified, for weeks with hundreds of changes proposed, all by Republican legislators, absolutely none[0] by the Democrats. Karen, I appreciate your perspective, Proudly join those courageous few who want to do the right thing, even if unpopular. Your business will surely fail anyway without the patronization of WORKING men and women. A "rare breed" once abundant in Ohio. If Washington, Jefferson, John + Samuel Adams and a host of others had lacked the courage to do the right thing---we would still be subjects of the King! ---thank you for your kind attention!

Mr Baker, tell us that those teachers would have made those concessions, were it not for SB5 hanging over their heads. I suggest that you check, the step raises and compensation packages are still intact. Not only have they not taken honest cuts, but will make more next year than this, and most are still not paying their fair share of pension , or healthcare.

I do not intend to publish my annual income, I am not paid by the taxpayer, I have already posted more about myself, than anyone I have seen, and that brought out the Hyenas---

I entered this discussion with honest motives, providing truthful and well thought out argument---am I infallable, I think not--but I will not speak to anyone who uses personal attacks, profanity, or deliberate untuths. --Thank You for your kind attention!

All I can say is make sure you read the actual bill (i.e. not just what one group or another decides to highlight from the bill or guess what will happen because of the bill passing or failing) and find out for yourself what's on it before voting and which side is more accurately presenting its case AND which side is closest to your own personal views. It's that simple. Usually when you have two sides, the reality is somewhere in between. Not to say we can't discuss it even spiritedly, but this doesn't resemble a discussion so much as a shouting match. Good grief.

Ultimately the realities of the economy and the Ohio constitution will prevail. The budget must be balanced. If SB5 is defeated jobs will be lost sooner than later.The cost of government services exceeds the ability of the economy and the taxpayers to support it. That's the simple reality.. If SB5 is defeated there will be no winners in Ohio and for sure public jobs will be lost. You might want to consider the advantage of taking a chance on SB5 and keeping your jobs over becoming unemployed.

Mr Webster: I congratulate you on your brevity and spot-on remarks.
Mr Tolstoy , notwithstanding.

"The cost of government services exceeds the ability of the economy and the taxpayers to support it" ......that is a lie unless you think your taxes will go down. You are just re-prioritizing where the money goes. Take from the worker - promote new business and job growth (hogwash)

The budget must be balanced......the budget is balanced. Take a couple billion from the school and cities & its done. SB5 has nothing to do with the budget....it's balanced now. Was due June 30th.

"If SB5 is defeated there will be no winners in".....the tea party!

"You might want to consider the advantage of taking a chance on SB5 and keeping your jobs over becoming unemployed.".....I'll take the chance! because if it passes I'll be quitting anyways - so good luck in November.

Your comments are your truth. It's what you believe personally and that is unfortunate. Neither Ohio nor America is well served by divisive class warfare. Other states are moving on past the name calling and demonizing Republicans and corporate America and reaping the rewards. Take Indiana next door. The Republican governor has led that state to a $1Billion surplus and the unemployment rate is below the national average. You have a choice. Defeat SB5 and keep things the same or worse or vote YES for SB5 but hold Gov Kasich accountable to deliver on his claims. If he fails, replace him in three years.

Hello everyone
It's great to see such a lively discussion here. It's even better to see that, for the most part, the comments have been directed to the issues and not at other commenters. Please keep it that way: We want Patch to be a place where everyone feels respected. Jean Dubail, Regional Editor

Indiana unemployment for the last month calculated (August 2011) was 8.7% in Ohio it was 9%. Indiana's median income is lower as well as their per capita income being lower than Ohio's.

Your point is accurate. However, from the perspective of the financial health of the state Indiana is where Ohio wants to be. Gov Daniels enjoys a 60% approval rating so he can and has been getting things done. These conditions are fertile ground for attracting business investment and that's what we need here in Ohio.

But not at the cost to the workers! Overall corporate profits are up, share the wealth. Attack the middle and leave the top alone right? It all about business right? Job creators? Apparently Indiana raked over their public servants and it has been the entire source of their good fortune, so lets do the same to ours? Then all of us lowly, hard working, blue collars can quit are jobs and start small businesses. After all that's all that is important right? Gov. Kasich's approval rating is no where near that, Maybe Gov Daniels didn't call his public employees "idiots", or maybe he didn't tell them to "get on the bus or get run over by it", or maybe he didn't give his staff large raises before attacking the hard working people of the state, maybe he worked with his public employees to fix problems with their situation instead of ramming a nonsense bill through in his first couple months that will crush unions for all public employees. Maybe we shouldn't be basing our vote on a comparison of Gov. Daniels and his state and looking at whats best for ours. No on SB5!

Where is it written that taking away the ability to bargain in good faith will restore balance? What I have heard from both union leaders and government leaders alike is that SB5 is actually pitting the two sides against each other. There is a strong desire on both sides (locally) to negotiate fairly, but the governor has butted his nose in where he was not wanted and messed with a process that was working for many. He has also pitted taxpayer against taxpayer. What I would like to know is, "What do you want your taxes to pay for?" If your answer is services provided by my local governement, than define those services. Be realistic and honest in your answers and you may surprise yourself. Firefighters, police and other public workers are easy targets and the governor has painted a great big bullseye on their backs because we let him!! These people work for you but they should not be treated like indentured servants or pawns in some political game of the governor's choosing. The passage of Issue 2 will effect every Ohioan in ways you did not think possible.

Karen, take heart, very shortly, Indiana will become a right-to-work state, when that happens, Ohio will follow quickly, or become a Ghost State. Soon thereafter you will be singing "Back Home in Indiana" because the tax structure and business friendly environment less than 200 miles down the road will become irrisistable. Ergo, when the Ohio is unable to pay the unsustainable pension, and health care demands of the unions, your taxes will go up, unless issue 2[SB5] is adopted. Thank You for Your Kind Attention

I always give my nephews a good piece of advice. They are 10 and 12. I tell them WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT. I sure wish I did!

Morna: here`s realism---Ohio policemen and firefighters will be unaffected by issue 2[SB5], I know it`s one of your biggest guns, but while you are reloading, tell us how this will work, Firefighters and Policemen are not allowed to strike, they have their own pension plan[PERS] which is probably it the best condition financially, in the world, [paid for and run by it`s members]. Sure, they turned out in support, admirable, but the problems inherent in our state are the direct result of unsustainable benefits projected to be paid to Teachers and State employees over the next 3 years. Will this completely solve the problem, no, but it is certainly agiant step in the right direction. Nothing short of Issue 2[SB5] will keep Ohios school from complete colapse by 2020. Massive layoffs of teachers and state employees will begin within 90 days of the repeal of issue 2[SB5]. A big jump in property taxes and levies would solve the problem, but you folks have milked that cow DRY, and taxpayers are revolting, as they should. Thank you for your kind attention.

Victor: RIGHT ON!

Who is paying you to read these sites and post your proSB5 nonsense? I'm done. I know whats going on, as do my neighbors, friends and family. Your insistently going back to the same old stuff. Maybe you can convince a few here but you can't convince enough people that if they take all the hit, that things will get better. Maybe we should look to those making $200k, $300, $1 Million or even $1 Billion a year to help out more? Why does it have to be the hard working people making $40 to $70? It is a direct attack on the middle class! So keep lying about it not affecting our public employees, or your lies about union thugs (note: get with the program you guys haven't used that one in a while) or your lies about how Ohio workers will be much better off with no unions to drive wages and benefits. We need some politicians to pass some laws so that states aren't pitted against each other to lower taxes for companies, ands laws to change the way we import goods from overseas factories. You want to sell it here then make it here, you want to make it here then treat your employees fairly and don't hoard all the profit for the top few.

For me, the basic problem with Kasich's bill is that he chose a law that he doesn't like and negated it without input from the citizens of Ohio. Laws are to be voted on by the public and they pass or fail. Then we all live by them. He is not King Kasich. He cannot simply eliminate a law he doesn't like.

What I'd like to know is roughly how much my taxes will go down if issue 2 is passed. Give me a number of how much money I personally will save. Nobody has been able to do that yet. And I'd like to know what the pay cuts our legislators will receive as a result of issue 2. Oh , I forgot, they're exempt. Hmmmmmm. Kind of sounds like a salesman who doesn't really believe in the product he's selling.

Whoa, lots of hysteria going on here!

If this bill is passed, public sector jobs will be put on more even footing with private sector jobs - which is as it should be. The taxpayers can't afford the over-generous salaries and bonuses which we don't enjoy. I will be supporting SB5, like it or not.

Earl I support SB5. I believe our taxes will go up if SB5 fails. Down with more taxes. Government workers are called civil SERVANTS for a reason. Private sector workers deserve to be paid better than government workers. that's just the way it should be period.

Elphant; if I send you my address---would you send me some of that stuff you are smoking?

I'm a proud tea party patriot. Taxes are the work of the devil. We need to stop all the socialist programs Welfare DONE, Medicare AXED, Social Security HISTORY. GOD GUNS and COUNTRY are all we need. Call me when the Boston Tea party part 2 is ready to start.

I was reading about the mayors in Avon Lake and one of the posters in the following article accused a mayoral candidate of lying about SB5. Can anyone check these facts - I am pretty sure that current union laws don't allow performance to determine promotions. He also said the employees in avon lake already have merit pay. Is this true!

I believe issue 2 could be a fresh start for Ohio tax payers, but if performance is used for wage determination and promotions in City jobs - I feel like I've been lied to by some of the pro SB5 folks. I was told step increases were given soley for seniority. I hope this is the case, but I cant find the cities codified ordinance. can anyone help?

Donald? WHERE IS THE ARTICLE??? how can you expect us to believe your typical union rhetoric and emotion without giving a link. Nice job making liars out of good candidates!
typical lib garbage ---------IGNORE

Constitution - I am sorry wow - wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Here's the article and excuse me for forgetting to post the link:

http://avonlake.patch.com/articles/candidate-profile-karl-kc-zuber-for-mayor

I'm not saying the stuff IS true - Im asking if if it is? I have been to many 912 tea party discussions on senate bill 5 and was told that step increases are a waste of my tax payer dollars and are awarded to public employees for nothing more than time served!

This particular poster cites article 258.05 of the Ohio codified ordinance and says it has merit pay in it for step increases. I just want to know if I was lied to or not!

sorry I upset you

Right Winger

2:04pm on Wednesday, September 21, 2011

I'm a proud tea party patriot. Taxes are the work of the devil. We need to stop all the socialist programs Welfare DONE, Medicare AXED, Social Security HISTORY. GOD GUNS and COUNTRY are all we need. Call me when the Boston Tea party part 2 is ready to start.

Wow this is a scary post. This thread has gone way downhill - where is the intelligent debate?

Certain unions (e.g., the Ohio Education Association and the AFL/CIO) have been adamantly opposed to collective bargaining reform since last Spring. While several unions have been willing to negotiate in good faith, other unions have led the militant effort to simply oppose any collective bargaining reform at all in every possible way (not one amendment was proposed in either Senate or House by democrats).
Many newspapers throughout the state have recognized that Senate Bill 5 addresses not only the current budgetary crisis in Ohio, but certain inequities between private sector and government worker compensation, and have written editorials favorable to Senate Bill 5. Many of those newspapers are just not accustomed to being on our side of issues. But when Cleveland's Mayor Maynard Jackson supports a bill like Senate Bill 5 because it will help him prevent Cleveland from going broke, even liberal newspapers take note.

The Columbus Dispatch and Cleveland Plain Dealer privately asked Governor Kasich to make one last attempt to reach out to the unions Kasich decided that the public reaction to his making the only last effort to negotiate in good faith, in contrast with the unions' recalcitrance and greed, would be worth the risk. Naturally, he could not divulge the game plan to our groups, or the unions would hear of it and could make a show of being willing to negotiate even though they are not..
The olive branch was refused. The newspapers were eye witnesses.

Myth: State Issue 2 is an attack on Ohio's middle class

Fact: Issue 2 empowers the middle class - and every Ohio taxpayer – with reasonable reforms to the growing cost of government pay and benefits,
which now consume as much as 80 percent of local budgets. As The Columbus Dispatch wrote in an editorial: “There is no question that Senate
Bill 5 is about the middle class. But it is not an attack, it is an attempt to restore to Ohio’s middle class the control of the government it pays for and
elects.” State Issue 2 makes some very fair and common sense requests of government employees to help get labor costs under control.

Myth: State Issue 2 would "cut salaries and benefits."

Fact: Issue 2 would not cut salaries or benefits for any government employee. Employees would simply be asked to pay a modest share of their
benefits, just like employees in the private sector do. For health care coverage, they would pay at least 15% of their premium. (Many local
government employees currently pay less than 9% of their health care premium, while the average private sector worker pays upwards of 30%.) In
addition, employees would be required to pay their required personal share of a retirement contribution (only 10%), rather than forcing taxpayers to pay
that share on top of the 14% employer share already contributed. That's not too much to ask at a time when many private sector workers get no
retirement benefit at all. Finally, Issue 2 requires that benefits apply equally to all public employees, so no one gets special treatment.

Myth: State Issue 2 will raise government employee health care costs.

Fact: Issue 2 only affects government employees who pay less than 15 percent of their taxpayer-funded health care premium. The new law requires
all government employees to pay at least 15 percent. That's hardly unfair when private sector workers are being asked to pay an average of 31
percent. State employees already pay 15 percent of their health care.

Myth: State Issue 2 will take away government employee pensions.

Fact: Government employees will still get a very generous pension benefit – an annual payment that averages their three highest annual salaries. That's
a pretty nice deal, when many private sector workers get no retirement benefit at all. State Issue 2 only ends a practice where some government
union contracts require taxpayers to pick up the tab for BOTH the employer AND employee shares of a required pension contribution. In this economy,
it's simply not right to ask struggling taxpayers to foot the bill so government employees can get a free retirement. Issue 2 simply says government
employees should pay their required share (10 percent) and taxpayers will contribute the employer share (14 percent).

Myth: State Issue 2 will cut teacher salaries.

Fact: That's one of the scare tactics government unions are using to turn people against these reforms. Nothing in Issue 2 determines salary levels. It
only ends the practice of handing out automatic pay raises, or “step” increases, and longevity pay - or bonuses just for holding the job for a
certain period of time. Issue 2 also asks that performance be added as a factor in teacher compensation, a goal President Barack Obama set out in
his national education policy in 2009.

Myth: State Issue 2 will cost jobs.

Fact: Just the opposite is true. Ohio's state and local tax burden ranks among the top third in the nation. As a result, companies large and small
have left our state in pursuit of better tax incentives elsewhere, taking hundreds of thousands of jobs with them. If Ohio hopes to compete for new
job growth, we have to make our state a more affordable place to live, work and do business. That starts with getting the cost of government under
control so we can direct more of our limited resources into economic development, community revitalization and better schools.

Myth: State Issue 2 will destroy union bargaining power by prohibiting strikes.

Fact: Ohio’s public safety employees are already prohibited from striking. Issue 2 simply expands that restriction to all state and local government
employees. Strikes are rarely used to settle a dispute, and, more importantly, they carry the potential to put schools, safety and services at risk
if workers are allowed to walk off the job. Most federal government employees have long been prohibited from striking, a policy upheld by
Presidents from Franklin Roosevelt to Barack Obama.

Myth: State Issue 2 eliminates binding arbitration, which will result in more labor disputes.

Fact: Binding arbitration - or the fear of it - forces local governments to agree to labor contracts they cannot afford, and it should be eliminated.
Local governments across Ohio have been forced into budget deficits and even tax increases by unelected, unaccountable arbitrators, who have no
obligation to the taxpayers. These decisions are sometimes made without regard for current budget or economic conditions. In most every dispute
situation, Issue 2 replaces outside arbitrators with elected government leaders, who are directly accountable to the voters for managing tax dollars.
If taxpayers don't like a particular contract agreement, they can fire the politicians who agreed to it. They'll also have a greater, more transparent
role in helping to resolve contract disputes by reviewing proposals from both sides and participating in a public hearing. And, if the elected officials choose
the most expensive contract offer, taxpayers can take it to the ballot as a referendum. It's time to put the people who pay the bills back in charge of
how the money gets spent.

Myth: State Issue 2 eliminates collective bargaining rights for government workers.

Fact: Actually, the law hasn't changed. The new law states the same as the old law: "Public employees have the right to… bargain collectively with their
public employers to determine wages, hours, terms and conditions of employment." The only difference is that Issue 2 helps to better define what
those "terms and conditions" are. Since the old law was passed nearly 30 years ago, government employee unions have successfully expanded the
definition to include a laundry list of costly perks and fringe benefits that taxpayers can no longer afford. Senate Bill 5 simply restores the balance
between the needs of our government employees and the ability of taxpayers to effectively manage their schools and services. As stated above
when you have the rigged system of collective bargaining that exists today, the abuses that have occurred are understandable but cannot continue. Thank You For Your Kind attention.

Myth: Victor Mooney is an independent thinker who believes in liberty and has the utmost respect for our founding fathers and the notion of a free country under one God for his grandchildren.

Fact: Mooney got duped by tea baggers at a lorain county 912 group meetup.

Liberal Progressive Rule Number 1 [a.k.a. the Sarah Palin Rule]: As soon as it becomes apparent that you have lost the argument on the facts, and realizing that you`ve come to the table completely unarmed, Immediately launch an attack on your opponents personality, motives, hair color, ancestry, race, sexual orientation, upbringing, lack of education, throw mud, stamp your feet, kick, scream, and above all, never, never, never, allow the debate to rise to reason! -----for the last time---thank you for your kind attention!

I concede the field---you win---I retire---in the future if stuck --please refer all inquiries to the Sarah Palin rule previously stated---

You are all familiar with FDR's statement "we have nothing to fear but fear itself". From the foregoing dialogue one cannot help but note how much fears and emotion and rather than facts and rational deliberation dominate the arguments. The debate is characterized by Ignorance, misunderstanding, anger and yes even hatefulness.
And about what ? Fear of fellow Ohioans, business and corporations, Republicans, the Tea Party. The opponents of SB5 writing in these comments seem to have one argument, "if you aren't with us; you're agin us". I remain hopeful and optimistic that Ohioans will rise above fear and make thoughtful decisions at the voting booth on Nov 8th.

One issue is the 15% MINIMUM contribution for healthcare, show me anywhere in SB5 a maximum % contribution?? I can't by (civil service) law go take a test for a city that chooses to treat its employees better by staying at 15%, once you are 35 years old in LE and FF you are staying put BY LAW (unless you want to work for Cleveland). So if I am paying $195 a month right now and that is 14% and the city decides you are required to pay 50% of the health care bill my share will go from $195 to $688 a month. There is nothing any union can do to stop a city from doing this exact scenario under SB5. So me paying an extra $493 monthly is'nt a pay cut???? An extra $6,000 out of my pocket a year is'nt a pay cut? That is only 1 issue and it would CUT my pay 10%. I have'nt had a raise since 2008 w/o SB5 in place and I know many other cities and school boards employees that are in the same situation of no raises since 2008, not all, but many.

2nd issue, years of contracts with no raise and always increasing the health care share. This can be done under SB5. If a city wanted to they could choose to NEVER give a raise under SB5, they can in every contract raise the cost of health care contribution while keeping pay stagnant. So over a 5 year period or 8 year period you get no wage increase and your health care out of pocket costs go from $200 monthly to upwards of $600 or $700 a month...hell maybe even $1000 monthly. This is exactly what can and will happen in some cities and districts under SB5.

The factors of SB5 that unions object to so much are the same reality the rest of the country has dealt with always. When a company suffers financially, the company decides how much to cut wages, or not give raises. And whatever healthcare is provided, is provided without any employee input. The difference? In the public workplace, the employees don't sacrifice, but they make the taxpayers who pay their salary pay more. They either have higher taxes, or less services, or fewer employees or bigger class sizes. A company doesn't just get to raise their prices so they can pay their employees more. The entire model of public unions is counter intuitive.

Not really Joesph - what company has a state law that forbids employees from asking for more personnel to be hired. What company says that after age 36 you can not do this job for any other company, and if you quit you lose your pension.

You're right - A company doesn't just get to raise their prices so they can pay their employees more, they raise their prices and pay employees the same or less.

Senate bill 5 gives all the powers to government you so fondly want to shrink. How can you tea baggers want smaller government - yet endorse a bill that gives all the balance of power to the government.

How is taking pay freezes since 2008 and paying more than triple for health care than you did 5 years ago not sacrificing.

If this isn't an admission of regret regarding the partisan politics (executive removal of House committee members, party line voting, verbal lashing, etc.), I don't know what is:

“I hate what is about to happen here. There’s going to be the d***dest mess anybody ever saw in terms of relationships between government and employees,” said House Speaker William Batchelder, R-Medina. He added that he is prepared to call lawmakers back into session yet this month to repeal the entire bill if needed.
(http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/ohiopolitics/entries/2011/08/17/kasich_to_make_statement_on_se.html)

Victor: I love your fact vs. myth rant. Problem is you have your facts and myths switched all around. There are a few problems with public employee unions. And they need to be fixed! Elimination is not a fix. I don't believe our public employees got our state into this mess and attacking them is not the way out of it. Bottom line: we are pitting hard working people of this state making 30k and below against hard working people of this state who make 40k to 80k. Meanwhile those that make 100k and up are free to enjoy cheap labor while they send their kids to private schools and enjoy their retirements and health care.

Im sick and tired of hearing these rich government employees whine about their entitlements. Im a tax payer and an AMERICAN - I should have some say in how much these looters make.

Fireman $9.00 an hour
Police $10.00 an hour
Teacher &10.00 an hour (No summers off ) work cleaning the school for next year.

Thats the new pay scale - take it or leave it your always welcome to come work in the private sector where you only get a raise when you show you not a slug.

Vote yes on SB5 so we can put these slug looters where they belong. The lazy ones will be on the street and the hard working ones should be happy just to have a job.

I Will Keep my Freedom, my Guns, my Money.
You Keep THE CHANGE!

When was the last time anyone on here saw that a UNION gave any money to charity? I bet every dollar they have taken from WE THE PEOPLE is wasted on shameful democrats!!!

Show me one example of a Union donating money to charity

The Constitution is NOT FOR SALE!

for 1776 American Patriot---

Union Political Donations---1990-2010

Democrat Party........................Republican Party

AFSCME.......................$40,281,000...............................$47,700
Nat. Edu. Assn..............$27,679,300..........................$2,005,200
Am. Fed. Teac..............$25,682,800 $200.000
Int. Assn. Firefighters....$12,421,700...........................$2,685,300
Am. Postal Workers......$11,633,100..............................$544,300
SEIU.............................$26,368,470............................... $98,700
UAW.............................$25,082,200...............................$182,000
Teamsters....................$24,926,400..............................$1,822,000
AFL-Cio........................$17,124,300.................................$713,500

The list runs to 24 major unions---all the same ratio--you get the idea ---ithis is where your union dues go---

Source: Center for Responsive Politics

Well we wouldn't have Kasich thats for sure.

Victor
Do you think those unions voted on how to spend the money of the members? Do you have a vote on how much a corporation you work for donates? no

the unions vote on how much to give and who to give it to. So that being the case what the problem?

If the IAFF gave 12 million dollars to the Dems over a 20 year period.

That's 600,000.00 per year of members money that was donated by vote.

Did you know the IAFF raised over 28 million dollars for MDA in 2010 alone.

I wonder if Jerry's kids support SB5?

I cant believe the unions gave any money to the republican party. There must still be a few honest ones that care about the working class.

The question was about union donations----I wasn`t asked about corporate donations---do some digging and post them---I am well aware of the money and who spends it-----Let`s see---the Democrats get about 95% of all union contributions---they Elect Obama and he brings "Jeffrey" in as "Job Czar"--and he moves GE jobs to China---but hey, if you are happy, I`m happy, ---I just answered a question---excuuuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzmmmmmmmeeeeeeeee----!

I didn`t bash anybody---I speak the truth, if it hurts, I am sorry--I am willing to listen to facts, not BS----Victor